Facing a massive overbet

[MarkAllen]

I see this situation and ones like it (TPTK or bottom set on a draw-heavy board), where we have a good but vulnerable hand, and someone puts me to a decision for all of my chips. I fold most of these, not knowing if I'm correct to do so or not.

Example 1: Assume all players have appx 100 BBs. 9-handed NLHE. You're in MP with Ah As. UTG+1 limps, UTG+2 limps, fold, you raise to 5xBB, BU calls, BB calls, U1 calls, U2 calls. (21BB in the pot.) Flop comes 7h Qh Js. BB checks U1 shoves for 95BB. U2 folds, now it's your turn to act. U1 is a 20/12 player with af of 2.0, rated as bomb. You have AA, backdoor hearts & straight, and 2 players yet to act behind you. What to do?

With no one left to act behind you, what do you do?

Example 2: You are on the button with Ah Qh. A loose-aggressive player in MP (35/22/3.6) raises to 4xBB in MP. You reraise to 12BB to isolate. Everyone else folds. MP flats the reraise. (27BB in the pot.) Flop comes Qs 6d 4c. MP shoves for 80BB. Do you call?

What factors besides the ones presented here do you consider when deciding your next action?

[powernewf]

Example one is a fold because you went to a four-way flop and didn't improve. The only things you are ahead of at the moment are KK (possible but not likely) and straight/flush draws which, like you said leave you very vulnerable. U1 could also have AQ and it is very likely that they could try to buy the pot. Likely holdings are QQ,JJ,77,QJ,AQ,AJ,AK. I don't like my chances here...especially if there are people behind me yet to act.

E2: Really depends on the read you have on the player. Without a decent read it's probably a fold; but if you have evidence that he's just trying to be that perfect elephant and throw his weight around, you could call here. Although, my guess here is that you are behind, or at best, splitting with AQ. But hey, I've seen these folk make the same move with Jh5h.

[Psi]

I fold both without much thought, unles the player has done this before or is showing tilt.

[switch10]

Wow! If you guys are always folding in these spots then please sit at my tables.

In hand 1 I can see this being a fold sometimes but there is a lot of hands you can beat here and I've seen people do a lot of stupid things like this before with very marginal hands. Even with multiple players in the pot. Villain can very easily have a draw here. If he had a strong hand here would he play if this way.....maybe but you can't always fold in these spots just cause he over shoves. In this spot as described I would prolly fold and pick a better spot. I could see him having QJ here. Mark first off I would make it more PF. With that many limpers I pot it + 1BB. You don't wanna play AA against that many players. If those raises aren't working then adjust and make it more. Find out the most they're willing to call to maximize EV. If people are gonna call 10BB raises then do it.

Hand 2 you hit one of your cards and wanna fold?? If you don't wanna be in these spots then don't 3 bet AQ PF. Against this player I'm fist pump calling here and not even thinking twice about it. If he has KK then so be it but you hit your card and doesn't have a full stack.

Mark I saw your other post that you've been losing lately. Remember poker is one long session. Stop being results oriented and be decision oriented. People feel if they're losing that somethings wrong and they start to doubt their ability. It happens to all of us. This is a brutal game but mental toughness wins. Everyone is a good winner but you really find out how good you are, when your losing.

I know people said don't waste your time with the micros however I've coached a few guys who started at these limits just playing ABC poker and crushed it. You just need to work on adjusting according to table/players. If you play straight forward and tight/agg you'll win. Almost every player at these limits are level one thinkers. Also, do not play above your bankroll. I have a very strict limit of min 50 buy ins to move up. It has worked for me the past 4 years and never been busto.

Hope this helps,

GL

[hitoall938]

Wow! If you guys are always folding in these spots then please sit at my tables.

In hand 1 I can see this being a fold sometimes but there is a lot of hands you can beat here and I've seen people do a lot of stupid things like this before with very marginal hands. Even with multiple players in the pot. Villain can very easily have a draw here. If he had a strong hand here would he play if this way.....maybe but you can't always fold in these spots just cause he over shoves. In this spot as described I would prolly fold and pick a better spot. I could see him having QJ here. Mark first off I would make it more PF. With that many limpers I pot it + 1BB. You don't wanna play AA against that many players. If those raises aren't working then adjust and make it more. Find out the most they're willing to call to maximize EV. If people are gonna call 10BB raises then do it.

Hand 2 you hit one of your cards and wanna fold?? If you don't wanna be in these spots then don't 3 bet AQ PF. Against this player I'm fist pump calling here and not even thinking twice about it. If he has KK then so be it but you hit your card and doesn't have a full stack.

Mark I saw your other post that you've been losing lately. Remember poker is one long session. Stop being results oriented and be decision oriented. People feel if they're losing that somethings wrong and they start to doubt their ability. It happens to all of us. This is a brutal game but mental toughness wins. Everyone is a good winner but you really find out how good you are, when your losing.

I know people said don't waste your time with the micros however I've coached a few guys who started at these limits just playing ABC poker and crushed it. You just need to work on adjusting according to table/players. If you play straight forward and tight/agg you'll win. Almost every player at these limits are level one thinkers. Also, do not play above your bankroll. I have a very strict limit of min 50 buy ins to move up. It has worked for me the past 4 years and never been busto.

Hope this helps,

GL

This guy just took the words out of my mouth. First hand, make it 1 bb per limper.

Second hand, i would not 3-bet it. I would just flat it.

Also, PE has a special tool. Fold to bb and sb, and steal blind It really works out when you can re-steal and also steal blinds. I really love the feature.

Hey switch, do you still coach the micros? I was thinking i needed a little coaching, not too much as i am 80-85% there. Do you have msn? I really have something missing, which i need to plug in!

[MarkAllen]

Thank you for the responses. FWIW, these are massive overbets by spewy players, and I called in both of these spots. In the first, villain flopped bottom set, the board bricked, and I lost (gasp) $2. In the second, villain had JJ, the board bricked, and I won (gasp) $5.

Obv, I'm folding to a rock in both these spots, and called due to the spewtard nature of both opponents.

I've been playing in very loose games against players who will call a psb on the flop with bottom pair or medium pp. My standard pfr is 3xBB +1 BB for each limper +1 BB if I'm oop. My example didn't reflect that. I wasn't thinking when I wrote it I guess...but my goal for this thread was to generally find what factors besides pot size, stack sizes and the betting style of your opponent I should be considering when facing these overbets.

Two examples from last night's session, in a .05/.10 9-seat NLHE game:

#1: I held KJs on the button. I have a stack of 65BB. MP (24/12/2. with a stack of appx 80BB raised to 3.5BB preflop, it's folded to me, and I flat call. (Against a tighter player I'd fold this hand, but I have the button and feel it's worth the gamble.) BB calls and we're off to the flop 3-handed (14BB in the pot). Flop comes KJ6 rainbow. BB checks, MP shoves for 75BB. I'm thinking he has either AA or AK, so I'm ahead, and I call all in. BB folds. MP has AQo. Huh? AQo. Oooookay. I'm something like 85% favorite.

#2: I'm dealt QQ in MP. My stack is 75BB. Folded to me, I raise to 4.5BB. Villain to my left with 150BB flat calls. Villain is a maniac (68/36/5.6). Everyone else folds. (10.5BB in the pot) Flop comes 368 rainbow. I lead out for 10BB (I was tempted to make it 20BB and overbet the pot myself, but I want action). Villain shoves for my remaining stack. Suddently, my QQ feels weak. I don't like it but against this player I'm never folding an overpair, so I call. He shows AJo. I'm like a 88% favorite.

In both these hands I got unlucky and lost. I don't think I played either incorrectly, but what do you think?

As far as my results are concerned, it's true I'm not happy with them. Lifetime I'm winning in the microstakes. Been playing for 7 months, and I'm up (gasp) $110. My BB/100 is something like 2.0. I feel I should be able to improve that.

The last two months, I've been getting unlucky after getting my money in good, or gambling on good draws where the odds make it correct to chase...and then I don't get there. I don't think I play results oriented while at the table. I simply try to make good decisions. But the results haven't been evening out. Either I'm just running bad (true), or I need to make some adjustments (also true).

But for the purpose of this thread, what else do you consider when facing the massive overbet?

[switch10]

Wow! If you guys are always folding in these spots then please sit at my tables.

In hand 1 I can see this being a fold sometimes but there is a lot of hands you can beat here and I've seen people do a lot of stupid things like this before with very marginal hands. Even with multiple players in the pot. Villain can very easily have a draw here. If he had a strong hand here would he play if this way.....maybe but you can't always fold in these spots just cause he over shoves. In this spot as described I would prolly fold and pick a better spot. I could see him having QJ here. Mark first off I would make it more PF. With that many limpers I pot it + 1BB. You don't wanna play AA against that many players. If those raises aren't working then adjust and make it more. Find out the most they're willing to call to maximize EV. If people are gonna call 10BB raises then do it.

Hand 2 you hit one of your cards and wanna fold?? If you don't wanna be in these spots then don't 3 bet AQ PF. Against this player I'm fist pump calling here and not even thinking twice about it. If he has KK then so be it but you hit your card and doesn't have a full stack.

Mark I saw your other post that you've been losing lately. Remember poker is one long session. Stop being results oriented and be decision oriented. People feel if they're losing that somethings wrong and they start to doubt their ability. It happens to all of us. This is a brutal game but mental toughness wins. Everyone is a good winner but you really find out how good you are, when your losing.

I know people said don't waste your time with the micros however I've coached a few guys who started at these limits just playing ABC poker and crushed it. You just need to work on adjusting according to table/players. If you play straight forward and tight/agg you'll win. Almost every player at these limits are level one thinkers. Also, do not play above your bankroll. I have a very strict limit of min 50 buy ins to move up. It has worked for me the past 4 years and never been busto.

Hope this helps,

GL

This guy just took the words out of my mouth. First hand, make it 1 bb per limper.

Second hand, i would not 3-bet it. I would just flat it.

Also, PE has a special tool. Fold to bb and sb, and steal blind It really works out when you can re-steal and also steal blinds. I really love the feature.

Hey switch, do you still coach the micros? I was thinking i needed a little coaching, not too much as i am 80-85% there. Do you have msn? I really have something missing, which i need to plug in!

I do still do some coaching. MSN is forcfedvr6@msn. Lets talk

[switch10]

Thank you for the responses. FWIW, these are massive overbets by spewy players, and I called in both of these spots. In the first, villain flopped bottom set, the board bricked, and I lost (gasp) $2. In the second, villain had JJ, the board bricked, and I won (gasp) $5.

Obv, I'm folding to a rock in both these spots, and called due to the spewtard nature of both opponents.

I've been playing in very loose games against players who will call a psb on the flop with bottom pair or medium pp. My standard pfr is 3xBB +1 BB for each limper +1 BB if I'm oop. My example didn't reflect that. I wasn't thinking when I wrote it I guess...but my goal for this thread was to generally find what factors besides pot size, stack sizes and the betting style of your opponent I should be considering when facing these overbets.

Two examples from last night's session, in a .05/.10 9-seat NLHE game:

#1: I held KJs on the button. I have a stack of 65BB. MP (24/12/2. with a stack of appx 80BB raised to 3.5BB preflop, it's folded to me, and I flat call. (Against a tighter player I'd fold this hand, but I have the button and feel it's worth the gamble.) BB calls and we're off to the flop 3-handed (14BB in the pot). Flop comes KJ6 rainbow. BB checks, MP shoves for 75BB. I'm thinking he has either AA or AK, so I'm ahead, and I call all in. BB folds. MP has AQo. Huh? AQo. Oooookay. I'm something like 85% favorite.

#2: I'm dealt QQ in MP. My stack is 75BB. Folded to me, I raise to 4.5BB. Villain to my left with 150BB flat calls. Villain is a maniac (68/36/5.6). Everyone else folds. (10.5BB in the pot) Flop comes 368 rainbow. I lead out for 10BB (I was tempted to make it 20BB and overbet the pot myself, but I want action). Villain shoves for my remaining stack. Suddently, my QQ feels weak. I don't like it but against this player I'm never folding an overpair, so I call. He shows AJo. I'm like a 88% favorite.

In both these hands I got unlucky and lost. I don't think I played either incorrectly, but what do you think?

As far as my results are concerned, it's true I'm not happy with them. Lifetime I'm winning in the microstakes. Been playing for 7 months, and I'm up (gasp) $110. My BB/100 is something like 2.0. I feel I should be able to improve that.

The last two months, I've been getting unlucky after getting my money in good, or gambling on good draws where the odds make it correct to chase...and then I don't get there. I don't think I play results oriented while at the table. I simply try to make good decisions. But the results haven't been evening out. Either I'm just running bad (true), or I need to make some adjustments (also true).

But for the purpose of this thread, what else do you consider when facing the massive overbet?

Mark nothing you can do on those 2 hands obv. I would be snap calling too. You said you don't think you play results oriented when at the table but you'd be surprised how tilt can sneak into your game. Especially after you've taken some beats. You will run worse then you ever thought possible! Take some days off, go over some HH's and learn to fight through the varience.

Your still really new at poker. Be patient and keep learning the game. As you keep playing you'll get better at dealing with the varience. I know when your losing it feels like your never gonna win again. It will turn around, it always does.

[MarkAllen]

I'm not immune to tilt. I'm aware of that and when I take a bad beat my typical response is to fold for a while til I get my equilibrium back. I fold hands I would normally play and wait for a top 6 hand (JJ+, AK, AQs). A tilted player can be taken advantage of, and a good hand is the cure for that. When they come in bunches, as we all know bad beats do, I quit. I have a pre-determined threshold and when I hit it, that's it. If I lose 2 buyins at a table, I get up. Either I can't beat the game or I'm making mistakes and it's time to regroup.

[hitoall938]

Wow! If you guys are always folding in these spots then please sit at my tables.

In hand 1 I can see this being a fold sometimes but there is a lot of hands you can beat here and I've seen people do a lot of stupid things like this before with very marginal hands. Even with multiple players in the pot. Villain can very easily have a draw here. If he had a strong hand here would he play if this way.....maybe but you can't always fold in these spots just cause he over shoves. In this spot as described I would prolly fold and pick a better spot. I could see him having QJ here. Mark first off I would make it more PF. With that many limpers I pot it + 1BB. You don't wanna play AA against that many players. If those raises aren't working then adjust and make it more. Find out the most they're willing to call to maximize EV. If people are gonna call 10BB raises then do it.

Hand 2 you hit one of your cards and wanna fold?? If you don't wanna be in these spots then don't 3 bet AQ PF. Against this player I'm fist pump calling here and not even thinking twice about it. If he has KK then so be it but you hit your card and doesn't have a full stack.

Mark I saw your other post that you've been losing lately. Remember poker is one long session. Stop being results oriented and be decision oriented. People feel if they're losing that somethings wrong and they start to doubt their ability. It happens to all of us. This is a brutal game but mental toughness wins. Everyone is a good winner but you really find out how good you are, when your losing.

I know people said don't waste your time with the micros however I've coached a few guys who started at these limits just playing ABC poker and crushed it. You just need to work on adjusting according to table/players. If you play straight forward and tight/agg you'll win. Almost every player at these limits are level one thinkers. Also, do not play above your bankroll. I have a very strict limit of min 50 buy ins to move up. It has worked for me the past 4 years and never been busto.

Hope this helps,

GL

This guy just took the words out of my mouth. First hand, make it 1 bb per limper.

Second hand, i would not 3-bet it. I would just flat it.

Also, PE has a special tool. Fold to bb and sb, and steal blind It really works out when you can re-steal and also steal blinds. I really love the feature.

Hey switch, do you still coach the micros? I was thinking i needed a little coaching, not too much as i am 80-85% there. Do you have msn? I really have something missing, which i need to plug in!

I do still do some coaching. MSN is forcfedvr6@msn. Lets talk

Alright, i have added forcfedv46@msn.com, my msn is hitoall937@hotmail.com.

[hitoall938]

Hey Switch, can you tell me your correct MSN? I know you misspelled this MSN, and when i reinstalled my PC, it removed it for some reason.